The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
miles away?
Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?

Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?
I love victor airways, but D saves time and money.

Any sense of the circumstances under which 'Cleared direct' is likely to
happen for all or a portiuon of a flight?

pgbnh wrote:
> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
> since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
> miles away?
> Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?


The few times I've tried it I've gotten CAF. If it looks like hard IFR I'll
file direct for the IAF for the field I'm shooting for, and then direct to the
field. I don't know if it makes a difference, that's just what I do. I was out
of flying for 15 years (1990-2005) and GPS snuck in while I was gone. Others
probably do it different or better.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

> Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?

Yep. You won't get direct in the Northeast. Once you get (say) into
Pennsylvania, heading West, you can ask for and will probably get
direct, but if you're anywhere near the NY Bravo, "fuggehtaboutit"

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose > wrote:

> Yep. You won't get direct in the Northeast. Once you get (say) into
> Pennsylvania, heading West, you can ask for and will probably get
> direct, but if you're anywhere near the NY Bravo, "fuggehtaboutit"

Same is true anywhere near Boston's Class B, too.

--
Peter

Out of Chicago, I'm usually on radar vectors for half an hour, then
often direct is fine if away from Class B. But a recent trip from Gary
IN to Madison WI was vectors nearly all the way.

pgbnh > wrote:
>The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
>since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
>receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
>miles away?

In the northeast, not likely. But, what does seem to happen is you
get cleared on airways, and keep getting direct to a fix two waypoints
ahead, effectively cutting off most of the corners.

pgbnh wrote:
> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
> since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
> miles away?
> Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?
>
> Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?
> I love victor airways, but D saves time and money.
>
> Any sense of the circumstances under which 'Cleared direct' is likely to
> happen for all or a portiuon of a flight?
>
>
Even though you may not be avle to Fly direct the GPS makes going direct
much easier if given. It also makes flying an airway easier if turns. no
finding the next radial....
Michelle

pgbnh wrote:
> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
> since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
> miles away?
> Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?
>
> Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?
> I love victor airways, but D saves time and money.
>
> Any sense of the circumstances under which 'Cleared direct' is likely to
> happen for all or a portiuon of a flight?
>
>
Even though you may not be able to Fly direct the GPS makes going direct
much easier if given. It also makes flying an airway easier if turns. no
finding the next radial....
Michelle

In article >,
"pgbnh" > wrote:

> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun. But
> since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few hundred
> miles away?
> Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?
>
> Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?
> I love victor airways, but D saves time and money.
>
> Any sense of the circumstances under which 'Cleared direct' is likely to
> happen for all or a portiuon of a flight?

I've noticed some replies saying "not in the Northeast" and I think what
they really mean is "not if your flight path takes you through one of
the big class B's." Up until a couple years ago I was flying out of
Nashua, NH and can't remember ever *not* getting CAF when flying direct
from there to Buffalo, Bar Harbor, or Caldwell NJ. None of those flights
took me through Boston or NY class B.

Then again things may have changed in the last two or three of years.

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun.
> But since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few
> hundred miles away?
> Is this not what 'Free Flight' was supposed to be about?
>
> Is it geography dependent (I am in Northeast).?
> I love victor airways, but D saves time and money.
>
> Any sense of the circumstances under which 'Cleared direct' is likely to
> happen for all or a portiuon of a flight?
>

I always try. Most of the time I get it. Can't hurt to ask, what's the
worst that can happen, you're back on an airway?

Enjoy the 530.

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
>
> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun.
> But since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few
> hundred miles away?
>

The likelihood of that was not changed by the installation of the GNS530.
Whether or not a direct clearance of a few hundred miles distance is
available depends on ATC radar coverage and what lies between your
departure point and destination. If there's a busy terminal or some SUA in
the way you'll have to go around them. If radar monitoring cannot be
provided by ATC you'll be on airways.

Interesting. I THOUGHT that the possibility of 'Direct' was improved if I
had an on-board IFR-approved capability to fly direct. So that ARTC would
not have to be directly involved issuing a series of vectors (or at least
monitoring that I was slying the vector assigned)

You are saying that the likelihood of receiving Direct is solely dependent
on airspace to be crossed and radar availability?
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "pgbnh" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun.
>> But since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
>> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few
>> hundred miles away?
>>
>
> The likelihood of that was not changed by the installation of the GNS530.
> Whether or not a direct clearance of a few hundred miles distance is
> available depends on ATC radar coverage and what lies between your
> departure point and destination. If there's a busy terminal or some SUA
> in the way you'll have to go around them. If radar monitoring cannot be
> provided by ATC you'll be on airways.
>

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
>
> Interesting. I THOUGHT that the possibility of 'Direct' was improved if I
> had an on-board IFR-approved capability to fly direct. So that ARTC would
> not have to be directly involved issuing a series of vectors (or at least
> monitoring that I was slying the vector assigned)
>

ATC must provide radar monitoring to aircraft on vectors as well as to
aircraft on their own off-airways navigation, even aircraft that have filed
/E, /F, /G or /R.


>
> You are saying that the likelihood of receiving Direct is solely dependent
> on airspace to be crossed and radar availability?
>

Yup. See paragraphs 4-1-1 and 4-1-2 at the link below:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0401.html

Limited exerience filing IFR here, but out of Denver class B, one
usually gets direct routing. Even when I've filed DPs and airways,
departure will typically change it to direct shortly after departure
(assuming you've filed /G).

-Brian

Last week, both Ft. Worth and Houston centers said "radar contact lost,
report X miles from Y" while I was cleared direct (not on airways) with /G
equipment - in Texas, going west into large headwinds at 4000.

On that trip - from central TX to KSAV and back, there were 6 legs. On the
first leg, I filed a few fixes and soon after handoff to ZHU was asked
"would you like direct HEZ". Next leg, while filing on phone, when I got to
route FSS said "direct"? And I said yes, and that was the clearance when I
picked it up. Same on next leg, and next, etc. So 5 out of 6 I filed that
way and got and on the other, they suggested right away. No transits
through Class B, though.

I'm sure YMMV in other parts of the country, but from this I learned: 1)
file that way and 2) even if radar contact lost, sometimes they won't send
you directly to an airway.

DL
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
>
> The likelihood of that was not changed by the installation of the GNS530.
> Whether or not a direct clearance of a few hundred miles distance is
> available depends on ATC radar coverage and what lies between your
> departure point and destination. If there's a busy terminal or some SUA
> in the way you'll have to go around them. If radar monitoring cannot be
> provided by ATC you'll be on airways.
>

"DL" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Last week, both Ft. Worth and Houston centers said "radar contact lost,
> report X miles from Y" while I was cleared direct (not on airways) with /G
> equipment - in Texas, going west into large headwinds at 4000.
>

Cleared direct to where and how far from it were you when radar contact was
lost?


>
> I'm sure YMMV in other parts of the country, but from this I learned: 1)
> file that way and 2) even if radar contact lost, sometimes they won't send
> you directly to an airway.
>

You don't necessarily have to be on an airway, but if you aren't you have to
be proceeding direct to a navaid and be within the usable distance.

DL wrote:
> Last week, both Ft. Worth and Houston centers said "radar contact lost,
> report X miles from Y" while I was cleared direct (not on airways) with /G
> equipment - in Texas, going west into large headwinds at 4000.

That's how Salt Lake does it also. It's common to get direct and lose
radar coverage for a portion of the flight. As long as you're above the
controllers MIA you're good to go.


>
> I'm sure YMMV in other parts of the country, but from this I learned: 1)
> file that way and 2) even if radar contact lost, sometimes they won't send
> you directly to an airway.

An airway may not be anywhere near you're route of flight either, which
is the case here.

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's how Salt Lake does it also. It's common to get direct and lose
> radar coverage for a portion of the flight. As long as you're above the
> controllers MIA you're good to go.
>

No, you're not good to go, you're just working with a poorly trained
controller.


>
> An airway may not be anywhere near you're route of flight either, which is
> the case here.
>

Where?

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "DL" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>>
>> Last week, both Ft. Worth and Houston centers said "radar contact lost,
>> report X miles from Y" while I was cleared direct (not on airways) with
>> /G
>> equipment - in Texas, going west into large headwinds at 4000.
>>
>
> Cleared direct to where and how far from it were you when radar contact
> was lost?

Cleared direct to an AIRPORT (with NDB as only navaid there). Radar contact
lost 196 miles out. Was requested to report 175 miles from K---. Was asked
distance out a couple of times before reaching 175 miles. Then handed to
next Center. Was asked to report 125 miles from K--- and asked a time or
two range a time or two before reaching that. Then before reaching 125
miles, Center reported "radar contact".
>
>>
>> I'm sure YMMV in other parts of the country, but from this I learned: 1)
>> file that way and 2) even if radar contact lost, sometimes they won't
>> send
>> you directly to an airway.
>>
>
> You don't necessarily have to be on an airway, but if you aren't you have
> to be proceeding direct to a navaid and be within the usable distance.

I also had a similar experience with only one of these two Centers, several
years ago and with /A equipment then. When they reported "radar contact
lost" I proactively asked if I needed to proceed to the nearest airway and
they said no - to continue. I e-mailed a controller in another Center (who
frequently posted to this newsgroup) about that experience and was told it
"was done".

Steven, you may be able to speak to the "letter and verse" of the rules, but
you may not know every practice in every center, as seems to be suggested
here.

DL wrote:

>
>
> Cleared direct to an AIRPORT (with NDB as only navaid there). Radar contact
> lost 196 miles out. Was requested to report 175 miles from K---. Was asked
> distance out a couple of times before reaching 175 miles. Then handed to
> next Center. Was asked to report 125 miles from K--- and asked a time or
> two range a time or two before reaching that. Then before reaching 125
> miles, Center reported "radar contact".

That's exactly how Salt Lake does it. Going north from here(BIL) ZLC
loses radar below about 9500. Since you're not in the mountains anymore
6-7000 are commonly used altitudes. After I ship you to the center
often ther first response is "radar contact lost report xxx." There's
another center radar antenna up near the Canadian border and they will
pick you back up in a 100-150 miles or so. Same thing inbound to BIL.
They will coordinate with me that a particular aircraft is nonradar. I
will see them as my radar is closer. There are no airways going north
out of BIL, only NW and NE and we don't make you go that way to get
where you're going.

>Depends on where you are and the traffic load at the time.

Twenty or more years ago, long before GPS, when I went from central PA
to Dulles or DCA, I filed "Direct" to an intersection just north of
those fields and got it about 70 % of the time.

I was never asked how I was able to make that direct fligh. (I just
followed a radial emanating from DCA or IAD.)

vince norris

Years ago I was ferrying some old King Airs and other twins
from Wichita to Illinois and other locations. I had a HP
27S scientific calculator that I had programmed for LAT/LON
calculations. I would input my departure and destination
coordinates and get the course. But even without the
calculator. I would look at the chart (in my minds eye) and
ask Center for "heading 250 until receiving Wichita" and was
never denied the request late night. The Controller once
suggested 240, which I accepted, but he came back a little
later with a heading correction to 250.

All direct flights require radar monitoring and if you have
radar, you can get radar vectors or just ask for a heading.
Within or near a center area, they can call up the course.
From NYC area, ask for direct CIN and when you get there ask
for IND, STL, DEN, LAX and you will get it, if the altitude
is high teens/FL. Low is in to many local airspace to
coordinate.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.




"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
| >Depends on where you are and the traffic load at the
time.
|
| Twenty or more years ago, long before GPS, when I went
from central PA
| to Dulles or DCA, I filed "Direct" to an intersection just
north of
| those fields and got it about 70 % of the time.
|
| I was never asked how I was able to make that direct
fligh. (I just
| followed a radial emanating from DCA or IAD.)
|
| vince norris

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:28:02 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The installation of the GNS530 is complete. The learning is just begun.
>> But since I now have equipment which allows it, what is the likelihood of
>> receiving 'cleared as filed' if I file direct to a destination a few
>> hundred miles away?

I've been doing that with an old RNAV, but I've been given "direct
when able" with vectors on a plain old VOR. It was Just north of
Detroit, they gave me a heading and that was it. A hand held GPS
with moving map display now makes that a bit more comfortable, but I'd
guess that if you can file direct with the new GPS you probably could
have before the instalation as well.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>>
>
>The likelihood of that was not changed by the installation of the GNS530.
>Whether or not a direct clearance of a few hundred miles distance is
>available depends on ATC radar coverage and what lies between your
>departure point and destination. If there's a busy terminal or some SUA in
>the way you'll have to go around them. If radar monitoring cannot be
>provided by ATC you'll be on airways.
>

"Roger" > wrote in message ...
>
> ... A hand held GPS
> with moving map display now makes that a bit more comfortable, but I'd
> guess that if you can file direct with the new GPS you probably could
> have before the instalation as well.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>
No guessing required, Roger.
You're simply correct.

"DL" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Cleared direct to an AIRPORT (with NDB as only navaid there). Radar
> contact lost 196 miles out. Was requested to report 175 miles from K---.
> Was asked distance out a couple of times before reaching 175 miles. Then
> handed to next Center. Was asked to report 125 miles from K--- and asked
> a time or two range a time or two before reaching that. Then before
> reaching 125 miles, Center reported "radar contact".
>

Cleared direct to what airport from approximately what point? I ask only
because I'd like to examine the charts to see what proper nonradar routes
could have been issued.


>
> I also had a similar experience with only one of these two Centers,
> several years ago and with /A equipment then. When they reported "radar
> contact lost" I proactively asked if I needed to proceed to the nearest
> airway and they said no - to continue. I e-mailed a controller in another
> Center (who frequently posted to this newsgroup) about that experience and
> was told it "was done".
>
> Steven, you may be able to speak to the "letter and verse" of the rules,
> but you may not know every practice in every center, as seems to be
> suggested here.
>

Those "practices" are controller errors. US ATC facilities are not free to
decide for themselves how they're going to provide services. They're
required to follow the procedures set down in FAA Order 7110.65. I provided
a reference for the procedures covering the situation we're discussing
earlier in this thread.